Nursery rhyme little jack horner

DEBBIE ELLIOTT, host:

This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Debbie Elliott.

You think the real estate market is treacherous today, try England in the late 1530s. That's what the nursery rhyme "Little Jack Horner" is really all about.

(Soundbite of music)

ELLIOTT: Here to explain is our London librarian Chris Roberts. He's the author of "Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind the Rhyme," and he's at our London bureau.

Hello again, Chris.

Mr. CHRIS ROBERTS (Author, "Heavy Words Lightly Thrown"): Hello. Hi, Debbie.

ELLIOTT: So who was Little Jack Horner?

Mr. ROBERTS: Little Jack Horner was actually Thomas Horner. The name Jack comes up in nursery rhymes a lot, usually to reflect a slightly knavish character, a bit of a ne'er-do-well. So I suspect that's why they changed his name to Jack from Thomas.

(Reading) `Little Jack Horner sat in a corner eating his Christmas pie. He stuck in a thumb and pulled out a plum and said, "What a good boy am I."'

Where to begin with this? This is talking about the dissolution of the monasteries, Henry VIII taking property from the Catholic Church. Jack, as we know, is actually called Thomas Horner. Now he was a steward to the Abbot of Glastonbury during the reign of Henry VIII. This is how the story goes: He was entrusted to take some title deeds of properties to Henry VIII as a bribe so the abbot could keep the main monastery, but was prepared to give away some of the lesser properties.

Now the title deeds were held and sealed in a pie, and Jack's off to London. But instead of delivering the bribe to Henry VIII, he helps himself to the pie, puts his hand in, pulls out a plum piece of real estate--in this case, a place called Mells Manor--and thinks he's very clever for doing this. That's one version of it, that Jack is a thief and he's stealing the bribe that's intended for the king. And he...

ELLIOTT: So was this common? Is there historical evidence to support the theory that bribes were often delivered in pies?

Mr. ROBERTS: It comes up bewilderingly often in nursery rhyme. And it's--I think the pie is used as a metaphor. I think it's not necessarily what we would think of as a pie. It's just referring to a means of concealing a document, concealing anything. It could be jewels in some cases. Now the Horner family, who incidentally lived in Mells Manor until the 20th century, are quite outraged at this slander of their ancestor and understandably so.

And there are actually two rhymes that mention Mr. Horner. The first one that mentions him is: `Hopton(ph), Horner, Smith and Finn, when the abbots went out, they came in.' And a much more likely reading of what happened is that Thomas Horner, along with the other people mentioned in the previous rhyme--Hopton and Smith and Finn--were up-and-coming gentry. They were Protestant, they were local merchants doing quite well for themselves in the area around Glastonbury, and that they bought the property. You could see it as an early example of gentrification. They bought the property at the time admittedly at a knockdown rate, and admittedly the land had been stolen from the Catholic Church by Henry VIII. This seems to be what happened after the dissolution of the monasteries. The king didn't keep all the land for himself; he distributed it amongst his supporters so he then could rely on their loyalty should anything occur in the future, should there be a rebellion in the future. I suspect, though I can't prove this, that the popular `Little Jack Horner sat in a corner, eating his Christmas pie' version is actually the Catholic take on proceedings there.

ELLIOTT: Chris Roberts is the author of "Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind the Rhyme," and he's a librarian at Lambeth College in South London.

Thank you, Chris.

Mr. ROBERTS: Thank you, Debbie.

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Little Jack Horner/Little Miss Muffet (Medley)

The Nursery Rhymes Collections 1-4 contain a total of 277 children's songs. Each double CD album showcases the highest quality children's music ever recorded with a total playing time in excess of 10 hours!

Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner
Eating his Christmas pie,
He stuck in his thumb
And pulled out a plum and said
"What a good boy am I
What a good boy am I"

Little Miss Muffet
Sat on her tuffet,
Eating her curd and whey;
Along came a spider,
And sat down beside her,
Frightened Miss Muffet away, oh yeah
Frightened Miss Muffet away

Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner
Eating his Christmas pie,
He stuck in his thumb
And pulled out a plum and said
"What a good boy
What a good boy
What a good boy am I"

Words: Traditional
Music: Ian J Watts

Origin and background

We have joined together 2 historical nursery rhymes to one song: Little Jack Horner and Little Miss Muffet. Both rhymes sound similar and both rhymes use the same metre. Ian J Watts has set the new songs to music.

The first part of "Little Jack Horner" is about a boy eating Christmas pie. He sticks his fingers into the pie and pulls out a plum which is very naughty of course but the boy seems to be pleased with himself and says: "What a good boy am I." So far so good but the rhyme seems a bit pointless. There must be another meaning because if these lines were pure nonsense they certainly would have disappeared at some time.

This is a possible explanation: Little Jack Horner refers to the secretary of the Bishop of Glastboury, Richard Whiting (1461 - 1539). The bishop was concerned about the expropriation of the monasteries arranged by Henry VIII. We mentioned him before, King Henry VIII, the father of Mary I Tudor, who was kept back from the thrown due to one of the many marriages of her father and became Queen of England later on, trying to restore Roman Catholism in England (see Mary, Mary quite contrary). But back to the bishop and his worries regarding the menacing expropriation of Glastboury. To forestall the threat of expropriation, he sent his secretary (Jack Horner) to King Henry VIII, with a cake, in which the deeds of manors were baked in. The most valuable of these documents, the Manor of Mells, is the plum, which he pulled out of the cake.

However, Richard Whiting failed and was accused of treachery because he did not officially abondan Catholism. Jack Horner was called as a witness when the trial took place and he incriminated the Bishop. At the end of the trial Jack Horner was given the Manor of Mells and his family remained owner of the estate up to the 20th century. There is another Nursery Rhyme dealing with the subject:

Hopton, Horner, Smith and Finn,
when the abbots went out, they came in.

This is another proof that there might be some truth within the legend. Horner stands in a row with a series of commercially successful Protestants: Hopton, Smith and Finn. All of them purchased land at a very low price after it has been taken away from the Catholic Church.

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